kevin said...

alright. i know most of you dear readers are not interested in this discussion kevin and i are having and are wondering why i feel compelled to post this as an actual post but i HATE making long comments in the comment section in response...i want to have the space to think it out. i know i can make my comments as long as i please but i just feel restricted by that tiny looking space...besides, people don't read comments...

that being said: (my comments are NOT in italics)


Kevin said...

Your comment about men objectifying themselves is interesting. That idea gives an interesting reading of the "cash, booze, women" hip-hop stereotype; here men are required to provide commodity-based evidence of self-worth. This valuation loses sight of basic worth of humanity and disenfranchises the "everyman". (or 'everyperson' because i feel that in a lot of ways we as woman are also asked to identify with these men...or at least identify the bravado as a desirable trait in a mate...)

It highlights a huge problem in our society - people on the bottom seek to become oppressors rather than to eliminate oppression. (i think this is really at the core of a lot of contemporary societal issue-'can't beat 'em join 'em-instead of distancing oneself from the desire to be somehow 'better' we forget to value all the things we currently have. in striving for more money or shit or whatever we blind ourselves to what we already have: passion, good friends, a roof over our heads...whatever...) if lives were measured on a scale other than some ridiculous dollar value for commodity i think we'd all be happier...ahh...sweet, sweet idealism...

I'm also interested in this "madonna/whore" dichotomy. I hadn't thought of it until you mentioned it, but our society devalues anyone who strays too far in either of these directions. It's either "ice queen" or "queen slut". In essence, our society has no acceptable place for female expression of sexuality; the only way we view female sexuality is in its relationship to male perception. as evident in every aspect of marketing, mainstream cultural production...you name it...the male gaze transfixes even women...

Perhaps this is starting to change with programs like "The Vagina Monologues". While I've never seen this performed, I'm under the impression that it is intended as a female discourse of female sexuality. i'm sure that was the original intention but it's since become a product of the socially acceptable (ie: ok by men) commodified version of feminism. it's a-ok because it doesn't really challenge anything. it doesn't offer up any kind of alternative and it doesn't offer an alternative perspective for men either...which i think is a huge problem with a lot of contemporary feminism...not all men are creeps and not all men are oppressive and simply loving your vagina doesn't change shit.

On a more music related note; I've noticed that in the past many male performers valued "intellect" as musical skill; e.g. jazz musicians value complicated harmonies, rappers value complex rhyme schemes. However, these "intellect" based musics have been traditionally male-dominated. I'd be interested in learning about "intellect" based music performed and created by women. Any suggestions? musically...hmm...i think it's just a matter of finding artists who aren't concerned with 'the industry'. i am a huge fan of joanna newsom who is an experimental folk-harpist who is amazingly talented. there are a lot of girls working in post-rock and experimental electronic stuff. there are girls everywhere but when i think hard about it the bands that are truly good, in an industry still amazingly dominated by men, the gender of the performers isn't an issue...they're just musicians and in no way qualify themselves as 'female musicians' or 'male musicians' (not that would EVER happen)

perfomance artist wise you should look up karen finley...she'll blow your mind...theory wise: bell hooks is always cool!

I'll see if I can find some Kathleen Hanna and Beth Orton, too. You were right - I've never heard of either. kathleen hanna plays with le tigre now and is a pioneer of riot grrrl (she was in bikini kill) and beth orton plays in the gossip (one of my current favourite punk bands!)

it's funny because obviously i am weird feminist...i AM a feminist for sure but at some other point i abhor the way feminism is used an excuse not to stand up for the rights of all people in general. there are an amazing amount of men (of all races and sexual orientations...) just as marginalized (and for the same reasons as women)...no, frat boy lawyers aren't, but artists, activists... etc...whatever...not the point. traditional definitions of feminism break down for me because the old rules no longer apply. there are now women in positions of power who add to the marginalization of women because they support and work within the system of oppression (can anyone say condeleeza rice...for example). the problem is now not only the patriarchy but the way in which capitalism informs the patriarchy and the way in which LARGE parts of society, not only men, buy into the notions of equality that capitalism has set up to trick us. yes, women still make less money but when they have a title like CEO no one cares, we think equality has been achieved. feminism has become a slogan for corporate woman to convince the rest of that the office tower is where we all want to aspire. 'up here, in our power suits, we're all equal...and we can still be feminine and shave our legs...' since when was feminism about NOT being feminine...

bah, that was a tangent. but this is fun!

alice, etc...